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The world obliges me to do something, so I create.
 Society wants me to belong, so I observe.
People force me to react, so I rebel.
They want me to stay still, so I paint.
Life requires me to live, but I am dying. . .

Fascism is not welcome to animal rights movement

7/3/2014

85 Comments

 
It's very sad to write this statement and I have never thought that it will be needed to point out that animal rights movement has nothing to  do with nazism, fascism, racism and other bigotries. It just was so clear. Obviously not for others. . .
Picture
Animal rights movement always has been against all kind of oppressions. Or at least it seems so. But right extremists try to join the movement and bring their views again and  again, they often see animal rights as a perfect platform for their propaganda. The message is clear, there is no place for fascism and racism. And never will be! And still debates are going on: should we let nazis to join animal rights movement or not?
First of all, how did this idea come to someone's minds? How could someone who stands for animal rights even have such concerns? How can we simply like that forget all the history and let fascists stand with us for one cause and at the same time spread their hate? Do we so desperately need big numbers on demos? Are there hundreds of nazis waiting to join the movement that we so terrified and simply cannot say no?
Often people tell me that things are changing, we do not kill others just because of their race or sexual orientation, and those so called nationalists do not hate everyone who is not from their country, some even have friends of different race or sexual orientation. Wow, such an argument! My only recommendation to that is to learn about analytic thinking, find out what fallacy in discussion stands for and do some research. Shorty: no, the fact that You know someone from oppressed group does not make You a supporter from the whole group. (Putin has a homosexual friend (according to him), does that make him LGBT community supporter and the rest does not matter? Obviously NOT, same goes here).
Yes, many forms of hate have softened since World Wars, but even if it is become somehow uncomfortable for individuals to express their bigotry openly (most of the time), it doesn't mean that it does not exist. The change of form did not make it disappear. This fascistic hate  still spreads around and sadly sometimes on behalf of animal rights/welfare.

Some activists even openly invite nazis join demos or actions to liberate animals, because [animals do not care who helps them] [it should be about animals, leave human politics behind]. Their invites often seem harmless like [of course I'm against racism, but if someone who is not wants to help the cause they are more than welcome]. And here we need to stop and start questioning if everyone is welcome really means everyone. Obviously not. All kind of activism deals with people, animal rights activists are people as well. We cannot simply forget human rights, wipe them out like nothing and collaborate with fascists. We cannot really fight for animal rights when we still doubt the need of human rights (ok, most of people don't, they say they are for human rights, but their actions and words prove differently). And all open hints to invite fascists just show the lack of understanding (or at least I hope so, because another option - understanding the danger of it too well and inviting nazis on purpose seems like unrealistic and way too well planned move; why someone from animal rights would do something like that?!) of the whole picture and idea of the movement.
Others say that we need to be open to everyone and animal rights it's a good platform to educate fascists about issues on human rights. If You really feel like educating them, maybe You should go and educate them somewhere else, like join anti-fascistic events (as many animal rights activists already do). This ignorance or lack of understanding certainly helps to assure that fascism sticks around and it will be even more difficult to stop it.

Nazi sympathisers play an important role in the whole scene. Any kind of sympathy just gives encouragement to those who spread their violence. Because of their unwillingness to cooperate with those who search for ways to bring justice, those sympathisers also share responsibility for spreading the hate. But there are thousands if not millions of individuals who would not dream of committing any kind of hate crime (in this case "hate crime" can be misleading, as it not always comes from "hate", many times it comes from lack of understanding, desire to be accepted, fear of loosing power, economic motivation, etc.) or hurt someone on purpose nevertheless contribute to fascism by sympathizing with those who do perpetrate hate attacks.

There are countless numbers of individuals in the movement who remain just passive spectators to this bigotry because they benefit in either a psychological or any other socio kind sense from the status quo. When  asked they would say it's wrong and perhaps would feel uncomfortable standing surrounded by fascists, but still would do nothing about.  Although lacking in prejudice, these spectators also lack the courage required to pay the price for doing the right thing. It seems that many people do not like to step out from their conformity zone, but  activists, people who already already are speaking up and fighting for animal rights, already stepped out. . . . So, how does it happen that so many activists don't take a clear stand against fascism? Don't they see the connection between human and animal rights? Don't they see that oppression is always an oppression? . . .
Sadly, even if most of them believe in principles of equality, they may feel powerless to change the situation. And at the same time, while fascism does not touch them directly, they will do mostly nothing. The consequences of this "neutral" side may be ambiguous, but the intentions are clear enough.
Now it's time to choose the side. There is no between and by being just a passive spectator You are contributing to the cause of hate.
Fascism is not an opinion, it's a crime!
Thank You for reading, and hopefully some of You will make a connection.
Copyright © Lex Kartanė

All rights reserved.
All works are copyrighted and not to be used without the permission of the author.
85 Comments
Daniel Carr
8/3/2014 09:51:36 am

This is some very interesting rubbish. I don't doubt that this message will be deleted due to my having a different opinion but lets go... I have no idea why you are referring to different races and homosexuals as "oppressed groups" when in many aspects they have great advantages such as employment opportunities, it's easier for them to gain a place in educational establishments, the fact they can play the race/homophobic card. Let's not forget that whether it is right or wrong National Socialists / Aryanists were the ones that made Animal Rights mainstream. It was them who started it, then those of opposing views who originally supported Animal Abuse came in later most if not all sources will support this. However like it matters... I, despite being a National Socialist, would rather have as many possible united for such a noble cause despite political ideology, to say otherwise shows that you have other priorities which you are willing to ignore AR for. The majority of your writing does not concern AR at all it is nonsense about fascists, nazis and violence. Violence from my experience tends to be linked with Anarchism/Capitalism and the likes, when NS are violent, which actually I almost never am it's usually for a good cause, not because someone said something bad about black people. Put your ego aside!

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Lesley Dove link
9/3/2014 02:15:09 am

Milda, we won't get to try to influence ppl whose politics we disagree with if we make them unwelcome in AR... so long as they are AR, as Daniel is, they should be welcome, for having got SOMETHING right.. AND of course I agree with those who say that the NS should not bring their other politics on demos, but simply should be there to unite for the animals and be a stronger movement.

Then maybe after a demo or online we can ask searching questions where we find their politics unjust/wrong in some way (and I assure you this has been happening on my timeline on facebook and Daniel has been responding, so you are welcome also to come and ask questions). Unfriending me is not so helpful.

Anti-fascist groups do not "unwelcome" meat-eaters, nor should they, it is the same thing, if animal rights groups dictate who is politically OK enough to be allowed to be involved. This feels like the start of the slippery slope in thought policing our movement, for example do we ban ppl for opposing one another on abortion? Do I get to ban you for being pro-choice or do you get to ban me for being pro-life? Can you see where this culture of banning those we disagree with on human issues is going when taken to its logical conclusion? It will destroy the cause and the animals are the ones to suffer.

I absolutely do not support NS, There is not even much I would agree with Daniel on. I have been reading up a bit and found several aspects of NS extremely alarming, mainly obviously the absolute demonisation and scapegoating of Jews on one site I've been looking at, which makes me worry how much some have learned from history. (http://aryanism.net/). I am not becoming a "Nazi" in case you think I am, even despite the fact that I totally supported and sympathised with you against that horrible member of the public telling you "get back to your own country"?

Daniel can always rely on me to be honest about my doubt that his NS/Aryan values idea could work again without more atrocities being the end result.

It would be good to keep communications open I think, because ultimately we want to be a positive influence on anyone who has been taken in by this (IMO) cultish worldview.

But the antifash movement taking over AR is also cultish and not encouraging honest debate and discussion from which we can all learn.. they are encouraging hate as much as NS.

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Chriss
10/3/2014 05:54:47 pm

are you honestly comparing pro choice and fascism?!

@Chriss
14/3/2014 03:14:12 pm

I'm afraid she is.

Aura Hazel link
9/3/2014 05:20:13 am

wow Daniel, seriously? you think LGBT folks don't get disadvantaged? try looking for a job as a transwoman, try to get help without being treted as insane. We have a 41 percent suicide rate and a higher chance of being murdered than your privileged ass ever will. You think a few antidiscrimination laws really counteract the presence of institutional racism/bias in the court system? That takes an entire new level 9of lying to onesself, it would appear you sir have mastered the art.

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Dan again.
9/3/2014 06:45:34 am

Aura... I said Homosexual, how did you pull transwoman from that?

Lesley Dove
14/3/2014 08:07:55 am

Seriously Aura, don't you know the Radfems and the likes of Julie Burchill with her hateful articles are more of a threat to you as a transwoman than the National Socialists, these days anyway!

Lynn Sawyer
9/3/2014 09:32:34 am

What a joke "Aryanists" making animal rights mainstream??? ermmm how exactly?

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Aura Hazel
9/3/2014 10:20:23 am

dan I merely chose v1 portion of the LGBT community based on experience. you really think you can excuse how LGB folks have been treated? you do realise that in many places being gay == death right? your ayrians inventing animal rights schtick btw has no basis in fact or reality.Hell HUNTING was considered an ayrian pastime.

Roy Blewitt
9/3/2014 02:09:26 pm

I disagree that National Socialism encouraged Animal Rights. Though it is true Hitler was a vegetarian, he did not push vegetraianism even to the SS. When in the Studetanland shortly after it was taken he ate with soldiers, this meant eating the meat broth, the person giving it to him tried to pick out the meat, he later commented that the food was too watery. He shot his dogs, the SS although at there training centre based on Eton (which they thought was a model of training for young men) bwere given porrage for breakfast there was no attempt to create the SS as a vegetarian army. It was Hitler and some of his top people who were vegetarians, not the aim of the party.

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Beyond Bigotry
10/3/2014 03:42:37 am

Fascism, racism and Nazis are all getting a bit of kicking here, as if they are all one and the same. OK so the extreme right is unwelcome, but where’s your unwelcome for the extreme left? Stalinists OK, violence-inclined FAI supporters OK? Pol Pot Redeemers? And what about people who promoted violence? Nelson Mandela was no pacifist and neither was Che Guevera. And what about nationalists? Isn’t nationalism the same as racism? It seems to me that it's a bit one sided – is your own bias is peeking through that thin veneer of political correctness? You should ban one set of extremists and leave the door open for all the others

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Lesley Dove link
12/3/2014 02:04:27 am

I couldn't agree more! I've seen so many AR ppl admiring Mandela even though he was a keen hunter.. this is very strange! Nobody gets kicked out for their views on Mandela though. I got unfriended by at least one other ARA just for speaking up about him not being so great as portrayed.

to Daniel?
11/3/2014 08:38:35 am

aryanists started animal rights? whahahahaha!!!!!!
what are you referring to? many of us still remember how animal rights movement was created, but don't remember you being here.

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Daniel
16/3/2014 03:20:32 pm

lol unless you are really old which I doubt you obviously wouldn't remember the start of the Animal Rights Movement, Someone like Savitri Devi would!

Fellow Vegan
14/3/2014 03:13:33 pm

Share this interesting history of Aryans creating AR and making it mainstream, why none of us have heard of this?

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Lesley Dove
9/3/2014 09:05:14 am

Yeah I kind of wondered that too!

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Kate
9/3/2014 12:05:44 pm

Animal rights and Human rights are the same. There is no place for those who preach hate and practice and support discrimination against another person in the animal rights movement. The animal rights movement is about equality and freedom for all species. Nazis, fascists, sexists and homophobics are against equality and freedom.

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Conor M
10/3/2014 01:48:54 pm

" I have no idea why
you are referring to different races and
homosexuals as "oppressed groups" when
in many aspects they have great
advantages such as employment
opportunities, it's easier for them to gain
a place in educational establishments, the
fact they can play the race/homophobic
card. "


You are a fucking joke and that statement is laughable. Yes we are an oppressed group. I can't remember a single day in school where I was not bullied and no, being gay does not mean you get better jobs; what a stupid thing to suggest.

Fascists and fascist sympathisers are not welcome on AR demos and if they are that organiser seriously needs to evalute their stance on so called equilty they are trying to fight for.

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Daniel
23/4/2014 07:09:06 am

You were bullied at school for being homosexual? Are you sure! Are you sure they were bullying you for your sexual attraction to men? I don't know you or your school life but I feel confident in saying that you were bullied for acting like a bit of a pussy! Therefore the social darwinism which is built into every biological being kicked in to try and crush you! I doubt it was homosexuality, if it was your school must of been interesting, I didn't experience it at my school!

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Lesley Dove
23/4/2014 11:28:27 am

Daniel has slightly lost me here, but I think he is trying to explain bullying rather than justify it, from his understanding of sociology, I should hope so anyway, and I sincerely hope you did not bully anyone at school Daniel, just for them acting like "a bit of a pussy" (good grief!).
I guess I've always been a bit obsessed with standing up against bullying, of myself and others, so not sure about this idea of "social darwinism in every biological being", maybe I'm some kind of a freak of nature.. but hey I don't mind too much being a bit different..

Chriss
10/3/2014 06:10:27 pm

Excellent points made. Ignorant people are everywhere, and unfortunately animal rights activism seems to be a good platform for fascists to spread their hate, we already had this happening and them trying to infiltrate the movement...

Thanks for making fair points about ignorance, agree really too much ignorance everywhere.

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Lesley Dove
27/3/2014 03:30:44 am

@Chriss.."are you honestly comparing pro choice and fascism?!"

Well yes I am since both may be deadly for their chosen scapegoats!

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T.V.B.
11/3/2014 03:01:49 am

There are many who'd like us not to speak up about this. But this is happening right now and we all are responsible! Racists out of animal rights!

Are You serious, Daniel???white race is more oppressed???LGBT community gets more rights????where do you live???please, remind us all about your white power demo....

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Lesley Dove
12/3/2014 01:54:18 am

TVB, (Terry V Burns I presume?) in order to understand the White Power demo Daniel did you need to understand the circumstances. Personally I don't think doing it as a White Power demo was a good idea, as Daniel and his friends did, but at least I now understand a little better why it was done, than I did before asking him about it. It did not just come out of the blue, they did not just decide to do it to be annoying and offensive you know, as may be assumed!

A young boy aged 9 had been bullied in school, it was racist bullying, and had taken his own life. He was white, the bullies were asian, so Daniel and friends were taking a stand on this in their own way. Nobody was harmed, the salutes pictured were afterwards and not on the demo apparently. They even had some black women approach to get a photograph with them, no doubt an interesting tale for those women to tell their friends and family that they met some White Power ppl who were not so scary ppl after all!
If they had been seriously frightening or threatening do you think they would have approached? Think about it.

My own thought is that things could have been done differently, and that White Power is a divisive idea, however you also have to look at the context now with the way that Black Pride is now linking up with Gay Pride and considered as acceptable and respectable!

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/03/26/uk-black-pride-announces-partnership-with-pride-in-london/

So I have to ask why is White Pride bad and Black Pride good? Frankly it's nonsense to be ashamed or proud of your skin colour, but if Black Pride is acceptable there will be a backlash from some quarters, it's to be expected, isn't it?

What a storm in a teacup this all is since Daniel is not a violent person!

I put it to all of you that the real discrimination here within the AR movement is your discrimination against Daniel, for his political views. He is only coming into AR as one person, not even with a whole group of NS ppl, there is no threat, so this is paranoia, get over yourselves please! Then we can get back to the real issue, animal rights!

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Fellow Vegan
14/3/2014 03:10:53 pm

Difference between black and white pride was explained to you by many people on different platforms (indymedia, facebook....) already, why did you ask again? That just shows disrespect to the times they used to explain you things again and again, why do that again? Show some respect, please! I won't bother anymore to explain you the difference of those symbols, that was done many times.

And also, Lesley, why are you everywhere where we can smell some kind of conflict? why do you defending daniel who is openly racist? you said you want to unite AR, but defending racists is not uniting, it's excluding everyone who is not white/english and not straight.

As article clearly shows the damage those "defensing " strategies are doing to any kind of movement.

Ah, and saying i'm not nazi, I'm not racist, and when defending others who are does not buy me.

Daniel
23/4/2014 07:11:09 am

Whites are the most likely to be the victims of racist attack, less likely to get employed due to "affirmative action". I can only go by the evidence Terry. I don't go on faith, hope or emotion!

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Lesley Dove
23/4/2014 11:38:51 am

Can we see some evidence of these claims Daniel? You know nobody not even me will find it easy to believe.

They say there are lies, damned lies and statistics..

It is hard to make sense of things because of conflicting info on various websites, about racist attacks. How do you know who is telling the truth?

Lesley Dove
19/5/2014 04:26:09 am

Looks like Daniel is quite correct about whites being more likely victims of racist attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_Kingdom

Racially motivated hate crime[edit]
The British Crime Survey reveals that in 2004, 87,000 people from black or minority ethnic communities said they had been a victim of a racially motivated crime. They had suffered 49,000 violent attacks, with 4,000 being wounded. At the same time 92,000 white people said they had also fallen victim of a racially motivated crime. The number of violent attacks against whites reached 77,000, while the number of white people who reported being wounded was five times the number of black and minority ethnic victims at 20,000. Most of the offenders (57%) in the racially motivated crimes identified in the British Crime Survey are not white. White victims said 82% of offenders were not white. These statistics show that ethnic minorities are overrepresented as perpetrators of racially motivated crime. Police and media face difficulties in being perceived to offer support to the far-right by reporting racist crimes towards white people, an ideal which has been criticised by Members of Parliament,. As a result, cases of hate crimes against white victims often aren't reported sufficiently, an example being the murder of Ross Parker.[13][14]

The issue of Muslim men sexually abusing and exploiting white children has been criticised by some Members of Parliament, who believe that political correctness prevented police and social workers from taking action.[15] Although Muslim community leaders have stated that the crimes were racially motivated, some politicians have denied the issue.[16]


On Affirmative Action, again from Wiki, although we are no way as bad as in the US, there is still an inequality in hiring against a white person if the workforce in that workplace does not reflect society's makeup already..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_employment_equality_law

Positive action[edit]
See also: Affirmative action
[show] v t e
Positive action cases
Discrimination law is "blind" in that motive is irrelevant to discrimination and both minorities or majorities could make discrimination claims if they suffer less favourable treatment. Positive discrimination (or "affirmative action" as it is known in the US) to fill up diversity quotas, or for any other purpose, is prohibited throughout Europe, because it violates the principle of equal treatment just as much as negative discrimination. There is, however, a large exception. Suppose an employer is hiring new staff, and they have 2 applications where the applicants are equally qualified for the job. If the workforce does not reflect society's makeup (e.g. that women, or ethnic minorities are under-represented) then the employer may prefer the candidate which would correct that imbalance. But they may only do so where both candidates are of equal merit, and further conditions must be met. This type of measure is also known as positive action. Sections 158 and 159 Equality Act 2010 set out the circumstances in which positive action is allowed. Section 159, which deals with positive action in connection with recruitment and promotion (and which is the basis for the example of equally qualified applicants above), does not come into force until April 2011.[9] The Government Equalities Office has issued a guide to the Section 159 rules.[10] Section 158 deals with the circumstances in which positive action is permitted other than in connection with recruitment and promotion, for example in provision of training opportunities. Section 158 does not have the requirement for candidates to be equally qualified.


I was hoping Daniel would come back on this one as he clearly knows more about it than I do!

Robin Lane
11/3/2014 02:36:37 pm

Having been involved in the AR movement for 30 years, I have witnessed numerous attempts by racists and those of the right-wing to infiltrate the movement, and each time they have been ejected. Sadly there are `AR` people who are now only too happy to have them join, specifically the Non-Human Declaration group. It`s been asked why we only concentrate on National Socialists? The reason is that the extreme-left don`t tend to hold any interest in infiltrating the movement. Some people assume that fascists = nazis, but Hitler was inspired by numerous other fascistic regimes (in fact Hitler was also probably the world`s greatest liar and thief), so when we say that fascists aren`t welcome in the animal rights/liberation movement, we are not limiting ourselves to neo-nazis! Lesley, you claim to oppose the ideologies of National Socialism, and yet you welcome those holding their views onto AR protests. The racist/fascist who claims to be there `for the animals` is still a racist/fascist once they have left the demo, so do you simply put their discrimination to one side just for the duration of the protest? I find this attitude both hypocritical and dangerous!

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Daniel
30/3/2014 06:56:21 pm

"The reason is that the extreme-left don`t tend to hold any interest in infiltrating the movement". Erm what!? yes they do and they have!?

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Lesley Dove
31/3/2014 02:27:56 am

Daniel is right about who has put themselves in charge of the movement (although there are some on the left who really do not think much of AR such as the Socialist Workers Party).

Animal rights/veganism should be welcoming for everyone, that's how we save animals, and yet I see in AR it is mostly the anarchists and the left and greens, a lot of anti-tory stuff (even a few tories are for AR and may be put off by general hatred).

I believe in spite of my own left-libertarian tendencies (according to the political compass quiz that is the quadrant I am in), that we are seriously letting the animals down if we're not getting the real diversity politically.. we need everyone.. because the animals need everyone!

And also it's not as though this idea of deliberately expending so much energy on keeping British nationalists out has made the movement any more attractive to some of the minority groups which the Antifa would claim to want to attract to AR. Eg we're still rarely seeing Muslims in AR, so we may as well admit to a major fail on that score!

Ann
12/3/2014 08:57:28 am

I always felt that as long as people care about animals they should be able to be a part of this wonderful movement...but after reading all this I started to doubt..maybe there are other ways they still can help and not be publicly for a better image,as no one wants to associate with them?

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Fellow Vegan
14/3/2014 03:18:11 pm

what do you mean by "maybe there are other ways they still can help and not be publicly for a better image", are you implying that we should collaborate with fascists and racists secretly? and just have "perfectly correct" image?

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Lesley Dove
14/3/2014 06:56:58 pm

Well you know I just do not accept there is a real difference between black and white pride, I am allowed to have an opinion aren't I?

I am simply defending a young person new to AR, against a pack of bullies, that is the bottom line, I do not agree with very much of his politics at all but he is entitled to hold his views, that is how it is in a free country.

Daniel has not attacked anyone for being non-white and is friends with non-white ppl, possible gay ppl too, I have no idea!
If he had been nasty to anyone for their race for instance then I would not be defending him!

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debz chapman
16/3/2014 06:26:53 am

daniel carter has openly admitted infiltrating the AFN...he has also been seen at EVF demos and continously does...these same EVF demos who just yesterday were calling muslims rapists etc!

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Daniel
23/4/2014 07:12:50 am

Wrong, false, I have never said this! I have attended one EVF demo before so that is false as well!

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Lesley Dove
16/3/2014 02:57:04 pm

So what Debz, Daniel has told me he has been on EVF demos.. never tried to hide that fact.. I do not know if he goes these days or not actually, not that it should make him ineligible for AR. I am not a fan of groups like EVF but it is up to him if he wants to demo with them.

Who gets to decide who is AR and who is not and who made you the AR police? Was there a vote or something I missed out on? (sarcasm)

Muslims being called rapists? Well I'd hazard a guess that that was an over-reaction to the disgusting remarks of a Saudi Muslim cleric basically blaming women who go out alone if they get raped because they should "stay home like Muslim women" and are "seducing men by their presence"!

Again I say that this has no bearing on if Daniel should be allowed in AR or not!

Why is it left to just about everyone other than the feminists to speak out when this outrageous nonsense from the mouths of Muslim clerics is brought to light? Don't even get me started on the feminists.. they seem to have totally lost the plot these days, to a point that I can no longer identify with them!

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to lesley
20/3/2014 03:06:10 pm

You are FOS (full of shite) your arguments are a complete contradiction. You claim to respect life but all your posts elude to the fact that you are a Nazi sympathizer . Allowing Nazis into your protests tells jo public that you allow ,support and tolerate prejudice. I definitely won't be supporting any of your causes. Sort yourself out and internet trolling is a form of harassment. It's called cyberstalking.

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Lesley Dove
24/3/2014 05:48:13 am

To Lesley, well firstly if you have any courage you will reveal your identity! And how silly to refuse to help the deer or any other campaigns I get involved in just because you do not personally like me.. you clearly do not put the animals first!

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Lesley Dove
27/3/2014 03:20:41 am

Also "to lesley".. (the anonymous coward on this thread) I have not cyberstalked anyone at all.. I have absolutely no idea what you are on about.. you do have a vivid imagination clearly! I will not tolerate libel/slander against me! Very sad and says a lot about you that you have to lie to get support against me isn't it? Also how the hell do you get it in your head that I am a Nazi sympathiser?? I believe in allowing ppl of many varied political affiliations on AR demos so long as they are AR.. does that make me a sympathiser with all those ppl's politics?? I do not think so!
An example: I don't agree at all with the anarchists, I always vote in elections and believe very strongly in democratically elected government, but it doesn't make me want a witch hunt against anarchists for refusing to vote, does it?! This would be the same thing as you wanting to keep Daniel out of AR, it would be completely unacceptable! I have no sympathies at all with National Socialism actually. I'm about as unsympathetic to it as you can be, since NS is anti-democracy and a one party state. I am against the extreme "left" for the same reason, eg the communists/Marxists, Socialist Workers, they are not too different from NS from what I can understand! I came out quite Left and slightly Libertarian on the political compass so I am sure Daniel would even agree and tell you this is the truth that I am not NS and I always have said I do not see myself ever supporting that due to my love of democracy.
He is doing good things in his life, good things for other ppl as well as animals, that none of you even know about.. so judging a person as a monster on nothing more than their political label is SO superficial and simplistic.. I am glad to have learned to get out of that way of thinking about people!
REAL ARAs will of course be happy to work with me to save the deer.

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Kate
27/3/2014 03:35:09 am

Wow Lesley Dove you are so deluded it is dangerous and dangerous for the animal rights movement. There is no room for hatred and NS, racism and Nazis in the animal rights movement. The AR movement is anti speciesism for all humans and all animals. Something you and Daniel clearly are not.
Anarchists are not preaching race hate they are talking about political beliefs.

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Lesley Dove
27/3/2014 03:48:05 am

I never saw any hatred from Daniel.. this is all in your heads.. has he attacked someone for being gay or black or anything different from himself.. if so please provide some evidence of this? The non-violent White Power demo does not count.. unless Black Pride counts as hatred against whites.. you can't have it both ways, that one is race hate and the other is not!

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Kate
27/3/2014 04:17:51 am

The Black Power movement came out of extreme racial oppression, segregation and involved white people from the start. There was a n extreme need to get equality and celebrate difference, also very similar to the Gay Pride movements and women's rights movements. White power movements tend to have a very different agendas and preach inequality. Animal rights and human rights are the same. So there is no room for race hatred, homophobia or sexism in the animal rights movement.

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Lesley Dove
27/3/2014 05:10:52 am

Bullshit Kate, seriously bullshit, because racism is the same either way round. Black Power/Pride not needed now any more anyway, we have equality laws now in case you've not noticed! Celebrate difference? What kind of differences? Why can black ppl do that and not have white ppl allowed in a free country to do the exact same (if they think some kind of difference is significant)? I think it's all crap as I don't see how race difference is so great that we need such splits and divisions.. it's only skin deep.. I seriously abhor racism but at least I do not have a double standard about it! I'd have absolutely opposed the White Power demo and if I had known Daniel at the time I would have advised against it personally! How I can be considered a Nazi sympathiser is totally beyond me!

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Lesley Dove
1/4/2014 03:06:25 am

I can counter your argument by telling you that Daniel and his friends' White Power demo came out of extreme racial oppression against one white boy from Asian bullies. Aaron Dugmore was only 9 yrs old, and this caused him to take his own life.. or did you miss the background to this event, which is basically what has ended up with Daniel vilified by so many ARAs? Some black women approached the White Power demo and had a photo taken with them, so clearly they were not being hateful to black ppl with that demo! Daniel actually said that was part of the best bit of the demo, so clearly he appreciated how some non-white ppl were understanding what they were doing. Under the circumstances I don't think he should be required to express regret for doing the demo since it was totally non-violent, I assume ppl are expecting him to regret it for him to be welcomed in AR.
My advice would have been to do it as a general anti-bullying demo, if I had known Daniel at the time, because of how ppl would react to a White Power message.
Surely he has been punished more than enough now?

I've become aware that there is a "secret" facebook group where ppl are making it their mission on demos to find him if he is on the demos, oust him and possibly even seriously hurt him. I know that Lynn Sawyer is behind this disgusting hate group. THIS is what cannot be tolerated in AR clearly! The promotion of violence even against a fellow vegan - you ppl should be ashamed!

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Kate
27/3/2014 04:19:19 am

And Lesley I am sorry to say that your views are misguided and because of that dangerous.

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VeganAnarchistLove
27/3/2014 04:38:36 am

@Lesley there are many campaigns to support and get involved, not only one. Calling person who is not joining one protest names is ridiculous!no one needs to join and actions cannot be forced due of fear not to fit into your REAL ACTIHIST bullshit.

Do I need to remind you about "my children are alive not like yours"? or "you've killed your child"? or Alison's case? FVG? or many others? recent ones? how do you call them? friendly chat?why do you think people don't like working with you?so many people avoid joining deer campaign..and ones who join don't stay long,their problem you say?ask Nazi to join expecting more support?not gonna to happen.
people who need to know know that, difficult not to, as you tend to go on and on about them!

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Lesley Dove
27/3/2014 05:02:52 am

Alison who? I have no idea who you mean by Alison.. or FVG..

Someone was calling me a bad mother and she had had an abortion, so "my children are alive and well unlike yours" was totally appropriate as a response to her attack on me.. or am I supposed to just accept being bullied and attacked and say nothing??

If someone has an issue with me they should address it directly not here, and most ppl remain anonymous which says a lot about them.

Many ppl who know me well are absolutely mystified why some ppl have a problem with me.. it's usually those who listen to gossip and lies who have more of a problem..

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hint for Leslie
27/3/2014 05:20:01 am

Read article again, hint:
"azi sympathisers play an important role in the whole scene. Any kind of sympathy just gives encouragement to those who spread their violence. Because of their unwillingness to cooperate with those who search for ways to bring justice, those sympathisers also share responsibility for spreading the hate. But there are thousands if not millions of individuals who would not dream of committing any kind of hate crime (in this case "hate crime" can be misleading, as it not always comes from "hate", many times it comes from lack of understanding, desire to be accepted, fear of loosing power, economic motivation, etc.) or hurt someone on purpose nevertheless contribute to fascism by sympathizing with those who do perpetrate hate attacks"
Thoughts?

Just asking why are you in every topic that has more controversial side?it feels like you enjoy fighting with others and playing a victim.

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Lesley Dove
27/3/2014 06:59:20 am

I am not in every topic with a more controversial side.. I just stand up to bullies, so if figures that then I end up bullied as well as the original target of the bullies.. but I am not going to change since I would want my friends to stick up for me if I needed them!

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Lesley Dove
27/3/2014 07:45:37 am

You who cannot even spell my name, and your bully friends, will only beat me when you make me completely change who I am to the point that I am so fearful of your bullying that I will no longer dare stand up and be counted when a fellow vegan is bullied and made to feel unwelcome in the cause of AR which I believe in so passionately.. and I have news for you.. this is NOT going to happen, NEVER, you will not change me, you will not break me, my integrity and conscience are intact and will remain so, I will do the right thing regardless whatever you say about me, whatever lies are spread, however you try to hurt me, because my true character is more important than my reputation.
Also there will always be others who will support my campaign for the deer, I do not need the approval of a load of Hallmarker bigots who want to tell me who is allowed to be involved in campaigning for animals, and who is not allowed.

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@LESLEY, right?
27/3/2014 09:46:33 am

Which bully friends?do you mean the author of this blog? doubt that and never saw her bullying you or someone else (links or screen shots please!) quite opposite.
IS THIS POST ABOUT YOU? why are you trying to get all the attention????? not only here,other blogs,skating event...

congrats on the campaign, just don't cry all over the place that not enough people are joining you, and how everyone is against you. no one is against you,but we are free to join campaigns we want or create our own.not all actions are on internet you know ;)
Just a little hope you got why others called you nazi sympathizer, because here you are really sound like one.

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Lesley Dove
28/3/2014 01:58:50 pm

Seriously some of you are so STUPID, for supposedly intelligent ppl, if you think that I "sound like" a Nazi sympathiser for just saying that we should keep human politics out of things when it comes to animal rights and allow ppl of all politics to be involved in AR so long as they support the cause of AR.. there is really no more I can say..

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Kate
31/3/2014 03:05:22 am

No Lesley we are not STUPID. It is actually you who describes yourself else where as "too thick"
Equality laws around diversity do not mean than there is still not discrimination, sexism, racism and homophobia. Just like laws around animal abuse and indeed the UK Hunting ban have made little difference around animal abuse and behaviours of hunts who still kill. Laws are ignored all the time some what blatantly or some times more hidden. Thats is why there is still a need for Gay Pride, Black Pride, Women Rights, International Women's day and animal rights. Like I have said before animal rights and human rights are all the same supporting equality and celebrating the differences. Not hating because of difference skin colours, sex or sexuality like Nazis. We can hate peoples actions but not their race,colour, sex or sexuality, which if you are not aware are something we can not change, That is how we are born. Actions and beliefs can be challenged and changed not skin colour.
And yes sorry you do sound like a Nazi sympathiser. I would be seriously worried if i was black, gay and your neighbour.

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Lesley Dove
19/5/2014 02:34:24 am

Umm. who is the one here supporting a friend who is gay? Oh yes, I best remind you, that is me, supporting Daniel who has known since about the age of 7 that he was gay.. ironic how almost everyone bullied under these no fascists/racists in AR rules has been either Gay, Jewish or Asian so far..

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kate
31/3/2014 03:11:57 am

Also Lesley Dove I am curious if you had two people wanting to join your Deer Campaign.
One a racist man with know political links to nazi groups.
The other a black man wanting to support your campaign.
The nazi has views oppressing other due to skin colour something that can not be changed however views and beliefs can change and develop.. The black man has black skin, born with it, can not change it.
Who would you manage that then?
How could you have them both in the group?
They couldn't could they.

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Lesley Dove
31/3/2014 06:57:48 pm

I have never said that we have to tolerate bad behaviour on demos and AR events. I would expect those ppl to be grown up enough to put human issues aside for the sake of the animals.
I do not own the deer campaign anyway, it is not up to me who decides to campaign, we're all free individuals.

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Lesley Dove
1/4/2014 02:39:30 am

Obviously my personal sympathies would be FAR more with the black person (I think I have made that clear) but if they could both behave without bringing this issue into it, it need not be a problem.. anyway this is totally not relevant to Daniel as he has not been on AR events abusing anyone for being non-white or gay.. there is no evidence of him intending to behave like that at all.. if I believed he would do that then he would NOT have my support.. and if he even wants to ponce about waving a friend's Union Jack flag AFTER a demo, whose business is that but his own?
Really your hypothetical situation is a bit of a joke, just like the one meat eaters talk about with the vegan on the desert island with no plants and one animal..

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kate
1/4/2014 06:34:18 pm

It is a bit rich saying we are all free individuals, something nazis don't really believe in hey?

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Lesley Dove
2/4/2014 05:03:49 pm

Well I do not support National Socialism, I only support the right of politically varied ppl to be in AR if they support AR.. I made it clear to everyone that I do not support Daniel politically.. but I do not have to agree with his politics to say that we do not have the right to thought police him on human political issues, that makes us bad like Nazis ourselves!

I think you need to take back what you say about worrying if you were a gay or black neighbour of mine since I have personally stood up many times against homophobic and racist comments, and always will do so! I even stood up to my dad when I was quite young for being vile about one of my best friends who was gay, and would do the same for a black friend too.
I am very insulted.

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Daniel
23/4/2014 06:57:25 am

National Socialists don't believe this Kate but as Lesley has said and is quite obvious to intelligent person she isn't NS.

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own mind
22/4/2014 09:50:33 am

This is the animal rights movement - not the human rights movement. I think that point is being missed here. This conversation shouldn't actually be taking place. The animal rights movement is what it is about and nothing more than that. People's thoughts and opinions on other matters should not even be part of the equation.

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own mind
22/4/2014 10:05:55 am

I also hate to say this. (I do not know Lesley and have read the above comments for the first time) but by reading through all these messages (not everyone involved but one or two) I would say it seems to me that Lesley is being bullied and everything she says is twisted. I do not tolerate prejudice etc and only take people for who they are but I understand the point she is trying to convey. I would also have thought that as animal rights people (I am one myself) are meant to be this, that and the other they would have broader minds to understand the point she is making, but your minds seem to be closed to that and just intent on bringing her down in everything she says. Is this not a contradictory to what you all say you are as animal rights?!

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Lesley Dove
19/5/2014 03:32:40 am

Not sure who you are but you can friend me on facebook if you wish, if you did not already! Thanks for getting it where I am coming from on this!

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yo mama
5/5/2014 05:38:05 am

Some people are only for human rights, the majority of the human rights movement is only for human rights, while the majority of the animal rights movement is for both human and animal rights. True humanists accept other humanists who are animal rights promoters.
Some animal lovers obviously only care about the animals, they are ignorant or blind to the sentimentality of human rights. Most human rights advocates are blind to the suffering of animals or willfully ignorant. The issue is blindness to a fully compassionate view of the world in it's fullness. the question is why? Why are some people blinded to suffering? That is my question.

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yo mama
5/5/2014 05:45:15 pm


Anarchy means freedom and love for all human and animal as we see it as going together naturally.

It is a fact that The Nazi's were the first ones run a government that protected the rights of animals to the point of throwing in prison individuals who infringed on their rights; it's also true that Hitler's Germany was the first white nation to support the national liberation of many non-white peoples, or their rights to self determination. In a sense they were pioneers in these area's. While Communism, Christianity, and Capitalism (The three "C's") only recognized the rights of man, generaly of White Men; Nazism did not believe that human rights should exist at the expense of living nature. They're world view explained the existence of other races and species as natural occurances, where as Christianity could only see that non white people were 'cursed' because they looked different, they could not be "sons of adam", and animals being non-human and not sons of adam existed to be exploited by all humans of every race. Nazi science taught that all races, all species as well as all individuals had their place in natural order. It does not exuse their oppression of jews, gypsies, the mentaly ill, and Slavic people. Their cruelty is not excusable, and the cruelty of any modern day Nazi of facist is not excusable. communism, capitalism and Christianity all support the rights of man over nature and it's non-human species. chrisitianity and communism should support animal rights because of their belief in compassion and justice to those who suffer. Capitalism exists soley to exploit not only humans but all life. Anarchy is about love, freedom and justice for all, without blindness, willful or not. it is about equality for all, and most of all love for all.

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yo mama
5/5/2014 10:42:43 pm

In any case, one should not worry, because most nationalists are very loyal to their local customs which include meat. Most fascists and neo-nazis are not for animal welfare and certainly not for equality. Even if some have a soft spot for animals, they are as blind to the suffering of their fellow human beings as much as many humans are blind to the suffering of animals, so they still miss the mark! STUPIDO!

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yo mama
6/5/2014 04:49:12 pm

Some animal rights advocates are blind to the sentimentality of human rights, and some human rights advocates are blind to the sentimentality of animal rights. Either way, hate mongers either have to evolve or get left behind and fascists, Nazis, kkk members and such should be left behind entirely! Let them help animals on their own time not on ours! Suffering should be addressed and those who would sit by and let suffering go on or be engaged in it are the same!

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yo mama
6/5/2014 05:08:35 pm

Let's say that the neo-nazis suddenly made a declaration to support animal rights, would they let Jews and others join them? or would they say: "help animals on your own time"..."and if I see you on the street alone I will beat you up"? So we must do the same with them! Some things are personal, and some things are business, opposing facists is as personal to us as opposing the rights of minorities is for them, it is also business.

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yo mama
7/5/2014 04:45:12 am

Politics is like show and tell, an exposa on ideas about how to run a country, but with the fascism it is about denying others their rights, so it is not political. This is why Republicans are getting the treatment they are getting, and it won't stop until they understand that denying others their rights is not and can never be political, it is brought into politics by bigots.

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Someone who knows
17/5/2014 02:42:49 am

Daniel Carter hangs around schools doing nazi salutes and intimidating kids. He's a scum fuck who has no place in a decent society, let alone a movement built on compassion and respect for other living beings like the AR movement! -- http://edlnews.co.uk/index.php/latest-news/latest-news/1044-the-edl-and-their-manchester-demo-nazis

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Lesley Dove
17/5/2014 03:55:31 am

The salute and photo was a bit away from the school, they had a mostly not too bad reception from parents there to their leafletting session, and some black women even had their photo taken alongside them and the banner.. so from what I have read, they do not sound too intimidating!

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Kate
17/5/2014 09:20:02 am

Lesley Dove a salute is intimidating.

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Lesley Dove
17/5/2014 11:44:05 am

And some animal abusers find animal rights protests intimidating even though not violent.. so your point is?

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Kate
17/5/2014 09:22:47 am

And you Lesley Dove are dangerous to the Animal Rights movement with you Nazi symathising views. If you can't see that then I really pity you and those around you.

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Lesley Dove
28/5/2014 07:55:07 am

Is this discussion in any way connected to me being banned from a meeting which took place on Monday 26th May with a film showing of Maximum Tolerated Dose?

I assume it might be so here is my email to the London Action Resource Centre who hosted this event, because I do not go down without a fight when it comes to being banned:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am the Lesley referred to in this event page as being banned from the showing of Maximum Tolerated Dose.
I phoned your number on Monday, I think it was, but even now nobody has returned my call.

https://www.facebook.com/events/749848241726785

I would like to know if you are OK with this kind of behaviour from these ppl in London Animal Rights, given that they have even refused to give me a reason for being banned. I have been with the animal rights movement for about 30 yrs (on and off due to personal circumstances) but am currently quite active and do not understand the reason for this ban on me at all. I used to work very positively with the main organiser of this event who I believe is Tino Verducci (Tino AL on facebook and “Expose the Truth” is his other page), I have helped on several of his vegan and anti-vivisection leafletting sessions and stalls in London. This is the first I heard of him having any kind of a problem with me, and he blocked me when I messaged to ask him what this was about.

Please respond and consider this a complaint which needs to be dealt with and not to be ignored.

Lesley Dove

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Nik
30/5/2014 02:36:56 pm

banned for what? for writing on this blog? how is this blog connected to the ban? do you know who runs it?

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Lesley Dove
5/6/2014 01:28:51 am

Yes I know perfectly well who runs this blog, we used to be friends and campaigned together for the deer.. she is a backstabber and in London AR, definitely known for her antifa activism and for supporting bans on any who are more tolerant politically within AR than she is!

kate
28/5/2014 11:26:10 am

I know nothing about this Lesley. But perhaps a chance for you to reflect on your tolerance of fascism and support of those that preach hate. The animal rights movement is about equality. Equality for all species including all human races, human genders, and sexualitues. Maybe people don't want others to mistake your dangerous views for theirs if they are associated with you. Reminds me of the specials song if you have a racist friend.

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Lesley Dove
29/5/2014 02:48:42 am

But it is OK to have meat eater friends right, isn't it? Double standards.. I am not against it but also do not judge who ppl are friends with on the basis of politics.. anyhow Daniel is not hateful to anyone for their race.. that has already been made clear here and on facebook..

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fed up with plasics
1/6/2014 01:11:31 pm

All the good ar people left years ago. The movement is now run by pc liberal mid class plastics. They couldnt careless about animals.

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Lesley Dove
5/6/2014 01:29:35 am

Spot on! They care about human issues more!

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dOn
5/6/2014 04:29:00 am

Very well written article. We need more people to take a stand.

@Lesley Dove - why do you still keep commenting on this blog? After your fiasco on Saturday no one is going to take you seriously. Bringing a well known racist to a peaceful demo!?! INSANE!
Im surprised it took so long for others to release who are you and glad you show your real colours. You were tolerated in the movement for way too long....
create your own protests and actions with your racists friends and ban who you want (we don't want to join you anyway!) and we will create our own (like we did before). end of story.

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Lesley Dove
8/6/2014 05:44:28 pm

All the violence was from a bunch of thuggish antifa who really showed their true colours on Saturday.

Reply
Oli
10/6/2018 07:51:40 pm

Yo, Lex, this is awesome. Fuck anyone who is arguing against you. This is 110% correct.

Reply



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